Outside of a Dog:

charlene

charlene wrote on June 13, 2007 at 2:58 PM:

I absolutely adore Mildmay! I wanted to kill Felix by the end of the second book, however.

...I don't understand the whole obligation d'ame. It seems like it's totally binding one way (the "servant" has to do whatever the "master" says) but not the other (if the "master" doesn't protect the "servant," nothing particular happens). So why would anyone ever consent to it?

[Spoilers:] Jura sryvk yrg zvyqznl nyzbfg tb naq trg uvzfrys xvyyrq, v jnf fbbbb ubcvat gung gurer jbhyq or fbzr znwbe onpxynfu ba sryvk, ohg ABGUVAT frrzrq gb unccra nf n erfhyg bs sryvk syntenagyl oernxvat gur grezf bs gur pbagenpg! [/rot13] Bah.

Kate

Kate wrote on June 13, 2007 at 3:10 PM:

. . . did I not say explicitly that I adore Mildmay? What an omission. I do.

I think I can't respond to your question with my understanding of the matter without descending into ROT-13'ed spoilers.

v guvax ol vgf angher gur boyvtngvba erdhverf cebgrpgvba ntnvafg bayl rkgreany guerngf, juvpu vf boivbhfyl abg jung unccraf gb rvgure fvynf be gb zvyqznl: gur boyvtngnver pna qb nalguvat ur be fur yvxrf rkprcg beqre gur naarzre gb pbzzvg fhvpvqr. jr qba'g xabj jung jbhyq unccra gb na boyvtngnver jub snvyrq gb cebgrpg gur naarzre ntnvafg na rkgreany guerng, orpnhfr jr unira'g frra vg ersreraprq. sryvk qvqa'g oernx gur pbagenpg, orpnhfr vg jnf uvf beqre gung zvyqznl tb bss naq xvyy irl, yrnqvat uvz gb or pncgherq naq gbegherq.

jul nalbar jbhyq rire pbafrag gb vg: qrfcnengvba. vg'f n sbeznyvmrq, vagrafvsvrq qrzbafgengvba bs gur qrrc cbjre vzonynaprf va znengung fbpvrgl.

jung v jnag gb xabj vf jul znyxne qvqa'g chg sryvk haqre vg, engure guna gur boyvtngvba qr fnat.

charlene

charlene wrote on June 13, 2007 at 3:19 PM:

Oh, I assumed adoration for Mildmay was implied :)

Okay, I see what you mean, but...

bapr zvyqznl vf pncgherq naq gbegherq, qbrf vg abg orpbzr na rkgreany guerng?

I understand what you're saying about desperation, but I'd've liked to see it working a bit more on the protection side. So far I feel like I've never seen it really working in a way that would convince me I wanted to do it, if I were desperate.

Kate

Kate wrote on June 13, 2007 at 3:26 PM:

As far as *wanting* to do it, well, that's a personal thing and either you're convinced or you're not.

As for the spoilers,

v qba'g xabj vs gurer'f nal zntvpny rasbeprzrag bs gur cebgrpgvba erdhverzrag, ohg v qba'g guvax guvf jbhyq or gur fvghngvba gb qrzbafgengr gung fvapr sryvk jnf jbexvat gb svaq n jnl gb erfphr zvyqznl sebz gur gvzr ur jnf gbyq, naq riraghnyyl qvq xvyy znyxne (jr ubcr).

Perhaps more on this will be revealed later.

charlene

charlene wrote on June 13, 2007 at 3:42 PM:

Yeah, I suppose it's possible it's a cultural thing and not a magical one ([ed: ROT-13'ed for oblique spoilers:] vs vg jrer n zntvpny bar, V jbhyq'ir gubhtug vg jbhyq'ir xvpxrq va orsber sryvk fgnegrq qbvat nalguvat nobhg vg).

I just felt kind of frustrated because the whole thing is presented in a way where everyone treats it as a sacred unbreakable sort of contract, and the contractual nature is a major plot point-- and yet I felt like I was never shown, only told, that the contract actually *worked* on both sides. That was my biggest problem with the book.

But yes, maybe this'll all become clearer with the subsequent books...

Kate

Kate wrote on June 13, 2007 at 3:45 PM:

Maybe it _doesn't_ work on both sides; it's possible. I just don't think we know at this point.

And just to be extra-super-careful about spoilers, I'm going to obscure part of your comment with ROT13.

Karen

Karen wrote on June 15, 2007 at 11:51 AM:

I read Virtu first, and then jumped back to Melusine. (For some reason, the promos for Melusine made me think of all the things I disliked in the Kushiel books) So I got Felix as an arrogant bastard who was kind of trying to learn better. But Mildmay sold me on the book, from the scene in the boat with the Beautiful People. If I had read Melusine first, I'm not sure I could have gotten through the Felix scenes.

Kate

Kate wrote on June 15, 2007 at 12:48 PM:

Karen: glad to hear it worked for you. At first I thought it must've been kind of an odd experience in terms of pacing and structure, but on reflection I can remember some ways that the second book reminds old readers, and I guess tells new readers, of what's come before, to make that possible.

kc

kc wrote on June 15, 2007 at 1:25 PM:

re: jung v jnag gb xabj vf jul znyxne qvqa'g chg sryvk haqre vg, engure guna gur boyvtngvba qr fnat.

Jr unira'g orra gbyq zhpu nobhg gur boyvtngvba qh fnat, rkprcg gung Sryvk oebxr vg, fbeg bs, gb serr uvzfrys sebz Znyxne, ohg V inthryl erzrzore vg zragvbarq gung Znyxne qvqa'g arrq uvf pbafrag sbe vg...V pbhyq or jebat, gubhtu.

Gur boyvtngvba q'nzr qrsvavgryl erdhverf gur pbafrag bs gur rfpyniva, naq znlor Znyxne jnfa'g nofbyhgryl fher gung Sryvk jbhyq nterr gb vg? Be ryfr, znlor vg bayl jbexf vs gur rfpyniva vf na naarzre?

Kate

Kate wrote on June 15, 2007 at 1:30 PM:

kc: oh, of course, your last suggestion is definitely right--says so right in the text and I overlooked it. Thanks!

kc

kc wrote on June 15, 2007 at 4:11 PM:

Evtug, ohg lbh xabj, V jnf guvaxvat gung gur grkg qbrfa'g fnl gung n fgebatre jvmneq pbhyqa'g qb vg jvgu n jrnxre -- nygubhtu gung jbhyq or nabgure ernfba sbe Znyxne abg gb qb vg -- vf vg pyrne jurgure Sryvk jnf fgebatre guna uvz sebz gur ortvaavat?

Joining you on the love for Melusine! Reading one chapter of The Mirador each month is only whetting my anticipation for the moment I will hold it in my hands with the day free ahead of me to do nothing but read...

Kate

Kate wrote on June 16, 2007 at 7:28 PM:

kc:

Lrf, sryvk jnf fgebatre sebz gur ortvaavat, ohg V jnf gnyxvat nobhg gur grkg V dhbgrq sebz gur cebybthr: "Vg unccrarq orgjrra n ubphf naq na naarzre."

kc

kc wrote on June 18, 2007 at 11:40 AM:

Lrf, gung'f jung V gubhtug lbh zrnag. Zl bevtvany fhccbfvgvba jnf gung gur zbfg vzcbegnag qvssrerapr orgjrra gur gjb glcrf bs obaqf jnf jurgure gurl erdhverq gur fhowrpg'f pbafrag be abg; cbffvoyl gur boyvtngvba qh fnat pbhyq nyfb or qbar jvgu na naarzre fb pbairefryl gur q'nzr pbhyq or qbar jvgu n jvmneq? Ohg V'z fher lbh'er evtug.

Kate

Kate wrote on June 18, 2007 at 1:09 PM:

kc: it is not at all clear to me textually that (oblique spoilers) gur boyvtngvba q'nzr erdhverf pbafrag; just out of curiosity, can you say what you're basing that on?

kc

kc wrote on June 18, 2007 at 1:20 PM:

Hm, maybe I extrapolated that from my reading of the text...I'll have to check when I get home, see if I can find what I think I remember. If it's all in my mind -- entirely possible! -- then I suppose it must be just the impression that I got from gur gjb pnfrf bs q'nzr gung jr'ir orra gbyq nobhg, va juvpu obgu Fvynf Nygnzbag naq Zvyqznl nfxrq sbe gur obaq engure guna univat vg vzcbfrq ba gurz (n onq vqrn, ohg fgvyy). Which could be misleading!